Matt... the only true way to settle this is the Texas Mile!!! Please make it happen!!!

ZR1...looks better...handles better....accelerates faster

Imagine if they ran a real race at a different track, say 30 laps, the GTR would be lapped.

both cars are great, but if were going to start using the ring as the benchmark we need to have a single independent driver to test all the cars who knows the track backwards and forwards. also standards as to how the car is setup no shaved tires, no race gas keep them as close to stock as possible and still be safe. other wise it's comparing apples to oranges as far as lap times go.

Hey Matt, you and Roy both stated last episode you'd rather have the GTR over the ZR1. I have one question for both of you: What the heck is wrong with you? I mean the window in the hood's kinda tacky but if you can afford a ZR1, you can afford a new hood for it.

Lap times be damned... you know the ZR1 driver had way more fun.

-RWD
-3 Pedals
-V8 exhaust note


Just for comparisons sake

3300 lbs vs 3900 lbs

638hp vs 480 hp

Even if the GTR is underrated, AWD and all the computers in the world will not make up for the power to weight disadvantage.

The car that ran 7:29 is clearly worlds different than the last GTR that car and driver tested. 0-60 in 4.1, 12.6 1/4 mile, and 0.6 seconds faster around willow springs than a Z06.

(I hate C & D just as much as the next guy but considering that the GTR had the second slowest lap time in their "Ultimate track test" and still won the comparison its hard to accuse them of sandbagging the GTR)

1: 100% agreed, collector value wise, go with the ZR1. Another factor, if I had a GT-R, I would drive it in the winter, the ZR1 would be a Garage Queen most of its life.

2: The GT-R is the base model, while the ZR1 is the super car version. The GT-R V-spec has yet to do an official lap time, but unofficially it is already faster.

3: I would buy a Z06…200-lbs lighter than a ZR1 and with a few mods I would eat a GT-R for lunch…

4: I really appreciate you putting the two videos together, is the GT-R far smoother on the track, or is that just me (especially on the long straight)…?

I still rather buy a GTR.

The ZR1 has a man pedal

exactly right matt, i have nothing against the ZR1 i'd love to drive one and i'd take one if some one would hand me one or sell it to me at 60 or 70 grand but for ova $100,000 its not worth it 2 me when i can get a used zo6 for far cheaper and mod it myself and as for as the GTR goes my only issue is the lack of a third paddle and thats only cuz i'm neva happy driving an automatic cuz i've always driven stick, its just more fun 2 me, i feel more involed, howeva that being said the GTR still looks fun, so there u have it.

^that is one, ginormous sentence.

Funny, how everyone originally thought the main competitor of the GTR was going to be the 911 turbo. With a time of around 7:40something, I believe Stuttgart will have to step up the game greatly to get in this race.

So whats Honda going to do now?The benchmark just keeps getting higher and as far as having benchmarks to meet for the Ring, they have a number of drivers employed just for driving the Ring they could use anyone of them.

ZR1 clearly wins

THE ZR1 SOUNDS BETTER... :D

ZR-1 is faster. Its settled. Lets stop beating the dead horse. BTW, didnt it look like the driver in the GT-R was working much harder making corrections in the steering? Could that mean the ZR-1 has a more stable chassis? Or could it just be the difference in the drivers? What do you guys think?

The vette's power advantage made the difference....It also costs more than the GTR. I wouldn't say anything is final until we see how fast the V-spec goes around the ring.

I say it will beat the ZR-1

Sweet, That was one of the best things that I have seen on 419 in a long time. SHOW ME MORE !

Ok, so it seems like the corvette timer is off by a little more at the end than the GTR's, but the Corvette clearly has the whole corse handled better than the Nissan, which surprises me.
It's clear that the Corvette driver was "going for it" a little more, but I would submit that he was able to because the Chevy's softer suspension allowed him to attack curbs better than the GTR. Anywhere ther is even a hint of a straight the GTR is receeding into the Corvette's mirrors.
I'll admit to being both a fan of the Corvette, and mildly disinterested in this whoile process, but this comparison has been interesting.

All i have to say is fanboys are blowing this out of proportion. This is an apples to oranges compairo. i mean, im sure nissan is flattered that they are only 3 secounds behind, but even then, the spec-v vs the ZR1 is more an apples to apples compairo. fanboys will always be fanboys tho. the zr1 is faster, damn, it should be, no question there... its just totaly wrong compairo, but even then, you can still see how a great car the R35 GT-R really is when it can keep up with a higher class car.

cheers to nissan for sure! cheers to the Spec-V when it beats the ZR1 which will be definate for sure (talking about the facts, dont you fan boys skew the facts).

fanboys will skew the facts until there face turns blue, and wont care either way.

That was fun as hell. Thanks for that.

I love C6 Vettes. Happy it CLEARLY kicked the GTR's ass...and while sounding better, too.
I hope it’s a legit win, and I look forward to next episode's discussion.

But Id still much rather have a standard C6 Z06 than a ZR1.
Aside from the silly see-through window on the hood, theres just something about naturally-aspirated engines which I like better than forced induction. Sadly, Im not a true gearhead and I couldnt really tell you why...its just a preference. Maybe its just a muscle-car thing.
That Mallet is a beauty, Matt. I was expecting not to like it cause I was expecting it to have a blower....but doesn’t.
Tastefully done, too.

Can anyone out there entertain me with some thoughts/perceptions/opinions on Naturally Aspirated vs. Forced Induction (Turbo or Super)?

I have this perception that a naturally aspirated engine would have more longevity and may be less tempermental or require less frequent tuning the same engine with forced induction...but of course I dont really know. Also, when Matt was driving that GT500KR...the supercharger whine sounded really annoying to me, and it detracted from the ballsy roar of the car's big V8.

gtr rulls

It looked like the ZR1 was more unstable in the curves and also on straightlines. I think the GTR had a softer suspension and the car is also easier to control on the track because of the AWD and the double clutch tranny !So the driver could hold the steeringwheelthe whole time with both hands which makes fast driving much more easier

GM wasn't joking when they said their was a "a strong headwind down the main straight."

Without it I'm sure the ZR1 would have gone faster than 179mph and widened the gap between it and the GTR a little bit more.

lets do a show where I don't talk at all. I will put up two videos side by side and add my own timer to it. So I can sit on my ass today and do nothing. this show just sucks more and more every episode. Thank you.

"The regular ZO6 power to weight is 6.20 pounds per hp and it ran a 7:49 on The Ring. The GTR has a pound per hp of 7.91 and ran a 7:29 on the Ring. In order for the ZR1 to finally beat the GTR it has 5.21 pound per hp. That is HUGE. This means that the ZR1 engine has to carry 2.7lbs less per horse power than the GTR."

nice @@@ well put together.

Vette had him by a car length the whole way,

you can see Jim's disgust as he drifts it, losing speed at around 5:15

vette all day !!!, cheaper, and funner.

now i want polyphony digital to design an onboard computer for the Vette.

werd.

Mero was sandbagging!!! Watch the video!! on the front side of the track there is a small stretch where he hits 170 MPH. on the long straight down the back side of the track (where there is a strong headwind) he hit 178. Here is the difference. you can hear him feather the throttle & the time from 140 - 170 is: front small stretch 8 seconds-ish on the lond straight on the back side of the track 12 sceonds-ish. watch & see for yourself. I personally think (Yes I am a Conspiracy Freak) he ran several laps knowing the GTR speed down that straight and kept it close knowing that what he had done earlier was enough to beat the Datsun. Let me know if I am all wet on this but I don't think so....

Ok that's was good chevy +1 for the ZR1 time of 7.26 the side by side videos of Time lap of both cars, the GT-R 7.29 & ZR1 7.26 wow that's was some great competition. the ZR1 advantage was the straight line. goin around the corners the GT-R is faster than the ZR1, the GT-R loss it's ground on straighline, esp the long straigth at the end of the nurb track. the 600+horse power and the3300lbs weight of the ZR1 helps alot to achive the time of 7.26. makes me wonder how fast the GT-R with 600hp

guys if you watch closely the Video. the run lap with this two monster. you will see the different, the GT-R is more stable going around the corners compare to ZR1. but the ZR1 upperhand is toward the straight. but going around the corner the GT-R shine.

If you ask your self a questions which car is better. the answer is both car....

GT-R reasons is. the GT-R going around corners it's much more stable and look safer compare to ZR1.

ZR1 reasons is. the ZR1 have the topend power. If you like racing pass 193+mph

IF you are looking for straightline raw power your best choice is with the ZR1

IF you are looking for better going around corner driving with reasonable power. your best choice is with the GT-R

I believe with smaller track the GT-R will out shine the ZR1. it will be difficult to put the power down of the ZR1 around smaller track.

If you think about it, the different was only 3sec. around the nurb track. but the horsepower and wieght different with two cars was BIG. if you think about the which car is Better

Matt, the different was only 3sec. around the nurb track. but the horsepower and weight different with two cars was BIG. which car is Better let us know matt.

An earlier poster Stephen makes a good point that there should be a single driver for the "official" ring laps if this is to be the new benchmark. I nominate Sabine Schmidt Queen of the ring according to Top Gear. She knows the track inside and out and is impartial and also loves to go fast in anything.

Thanks alot for comparing both vids!
-COR-vette fans are quite big mouthed here(usa-usa-usa...) -should wait and see 4 the V-spec. Then we will see who is the fastest, -But then again -we have the new NSX and the new Lexus(V10) entering the scene! -That will make things interesting!
LOOOVE Ya G

The only thing I have to say is that the GTR is the regular plain jane GTR where as the ZR1 is a ZR1, not a base vette. With saying that, I think that the V-Spec is the car that should be compared to the ZR1 as it will be a modded version of the base model like the ZR1 is to the base vette.

What a trip. Loved the ZR1.

Personally I think that the ZR-1 posted a better time that the GT-R did. I watched the track through the windshield of both cars and you can clearly see the ZR-1 pulling into turns and onto straights a few seconds ahead of the GT-R especially towards the end of the lap.

All the people saying the Gt-R is over matched didn't care that nissan's gt-r they sent to the magazines was putting down at least 500 hp to the wheels against a zo6 that was only putting 500 to the flywheel. Remember this thats the fastest the gt-r could run while that was just testing for the vette look for a 7:20 by the time its production ready.

http://blogs.motortrend.com/6247428/new-cars/nissan-360-day-1-things-ive-learned/index.html

Nissan engineers insist the GT-R really does only have 480hp. Motohiro Matsumura, president of Nissan Technical Center North America, Inc. in Farmington Hills, Michigan, says our dyno test story which revealed the GT-R develops 430hp at the wheels is basically right. But he insists our estimate of a minimum 15 percent friction losses -- which suggests the GT-R is making 507hp -- is wrong. Matsumura-san says ultra-low friction bearings in the wheel hubs and transmission, plus the careful alignment of the all-wheel drive system's propshafts, mean friction losses are reduced to an unprecedented 10 percent or so. We're going to get a GT-R back and conduct some coast-down tests to see if he's right.

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/a0427625-bace-447b-b5c0-9ad300c77450.htm
Shinkaze: Mr. Millen when you drove Road and Tracks test, you got a 1:56 for the gtr and a 2:01 for the ZO6.

Millen: Thats right

Shinkaze: Car and Driver were unable to get that time, also their 1/4 mile times were significatly slower. Do you have a theory on why their times are off your times?

Millen: You know i saw the magazine just today. Their time in the ZO6 was similar in time to what i did, but the gtr time was much slower. I am curious about that because the time is the time. We timed it with a gps system to. I got a number of laps at 1:56 with the gtr. Maybe Car and Driver didn't know how to make best use of the turbochargers and 4wd and all that. They didn't take the car as quick as it can go around Buttonwillow. It was the exact same track config. that i drove around to so i was really surprised by that.

Shinkaze: One of the theories that's been put out there. Is that the Car and Driver car was on 91 octane and maybe your car was on race gas, putting the car on a more conservative fuel map, do you think there's some possibility in that the car isn't seeing as much hp on 91 octane?

Millen: I don't think so and i'll tell you why. I did another test recently with Road and Track magazine which is going to come out soon, probably within the next month. And we went to Willow Springs, we went to the big track at willow and went to the streets of willow the next day. And i drove a bunch of different sports cars, i think there was about 12 cars there, um and again the gtr was quite a bit quicker than the ZO6 and the Porsche um GT2.

Shinkaze: Quicker than the gt2, the standard gtr is quicker than the gt2?

Millen: Yes it was. You will see the test come out real soon. The gtr wasn't actually the quickest car in the test, there were 2 cars quicker. But you will have to wait till you see Road and Track magazine when it comes out. Did a real good time with the Viper ACR. Which is a very quick car especially on the Michelin tires. Somehow they didn't get all you can get out of the gtr at Buttonwillow. You know alot of people are misleaded about the gtr and they say how its easy to drive, and it is, it's very easy to drive upto about 80 or 90%, when you really wanna start pushing that car it's going to start slipping and sliding around on you, it's natural. Any car if your going really quick your sliding and moving the car. People getting really secure in the car and think there going quick, but you can go alot quicker.

Shinkaze: So the final question and this is the one that sets message boards aflame, is 7:29 on the Nurburgring achievable with this vehicle?

Millen: It was done, so ya know

Shinkaze: The message boards say oh the car it's a ringer, it's tweaked out, it's a vspec or something crazy. In your professional experience given what other cars have achieved, do you think it's achievable.

Millen: I believe the new ZR1 has gone around in 7:27, so i think that kinds of puts this in perspective. The most amazing thing about the gtr when i first drove it, was i couldn't believe how well it did everything, cornering and accelerating and so on. And at that time i said, if i was going to do a long distance race in a production car, this is the car i would want to do it in, cause you can do it lap after lap after lap. And you can use the curbs you can really use alot of the track were other cars you can't.

Shinkaze: So what about the people that complain about the 3800 lbs, it's rated at less than 500 hp, close to 500 just a little bit less, and yet the numbers it achieves at that weight and that power are just ridiculous. What do you think the magic is?

Millen: If you look at the acceleration times, like in the Road and Track test that we did, it wasn't the quickest accelerating, infact the corvette was quicker on the straightaways on the long straightaways it was faster. Cause it's alot lighter car. It's all about getting into the corners and through them and out of them, and the momentum you can carry with the gtr is amazing, thats were your getting it. That's why the cars so quick.

Shinkaze: Mr. Millen thank you very much for answering my questions.

kyle Millen his son posted too...

KYLE:
Hey Guys,

I'm Kyle Millen, Steve's son. I know my opinion is obviously going to be biased but I assure you, when my Dad tests out a vehicle he does not sugar coat his feelings at all.

In regards to his remark about wanting to drive the GT-R in an endurance race...Each year we compete in a 6 day tarmac road rally in New Zealand. We had to miss the race in 2007 but when we competed in 2006 we took down a Ford GT supercar. For 5 years before that my Dad raced everything from a Focus to a Falcon (basically a Taurus.) This year we will be returning again with the GT and after another year of further development and testing we are hoping to go for the outright win. However, the GT is not exactly the easiest car for such an event. That car produces a lot of power (600+ at the rear wheels, yes we've made some modifications) and has no traction control. Our major issue is traction. In 2006 we were beaten by rally spec. Subaru's, Mitsu's, and R34 Skyline GT-R's (the overall winner of the event two years in a row.) The rear wheel drive car was just no competition for the all wheel drive's. Especially in the rain.

When my Dad was saying that he would prefer to drive the GT-R in an endurance race (based on production cars) this is what he was talking about.


Kyle:
It is definitely fun to be Steve Millen's son. I also work for my Dad at STILLEN and we definitely work hard but we also play hard. Plus how can you beat our job? (haha) I actually got to take a GT-R for a very quick test drive about two months ago...It was a BLAST. It is hard to not enjoy what we do.

I don't really get worried or anything when he is racing. He is an absolutely amazing driver and he can do things with a car that you wouldn't believe.

I actually navigate for him on the Targa rallies. Here are some videos of the event.

http://www.stillen.com/project_vehicles/GTOrange/STILLEN_FordGT.asp

To view the videos just scroll down and click on one of the four video screens. The in-car footage (4th video) is me navigating. By the way...We were having some issues with the tripmeter early in the race so I couldn't read it correctly...I promise I got better as the rally went on haha.


Kyle:
Thanks for the welcome! We are planning on doing some very exciting things with our GT-R and I will let all of you know the progress on our build.

By the way...This post on the Ferrari forum made me laugh a bit...
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=137854226&postcount=11

NISSAN has not paid my Dad a dime for any of the work he did with Road and Track. Also, they are not going to be giving us a vehicle as any sort of compensation. We have worked very closely with NISSAN for many years and we build project cars for them but that relationship was in no way related to the Road and Track article. They actually didn't even know that he was going to be the driver for the test until Road and Track told them. It's not like he was a specially requested driver by NISSAN. He usually does about 3 to 4 track tests a year for R&T and this just happened to be another one.

After the test with R&T NISSAN was impressed and then hired My Dad to drive the car for some of their media ride alongs up in Reno-Fernley but all of that was arranged well AFTER the R&T test.

Now I have to go tell my dad that the Ferrari guys think he's too old hahaha...



RedBeauty84ZX:
Hey Kyle, we greatly appreciate your contribution here. Would you happen to have any more info on the test your dad was referring to in the upcomming R&T where the GTR beat the GT2 but was out paced by two other cars?


Kyle:
Yes...Yes I do...That's about as much info as I can give unfortunately. We aren't allowed to talk about the tests until after they come out. R&T would be pretty upset with us if we leaked the results prior to the release of the magazine.

I doubt it would be a problem if I mentioned that the test was performed on big Willow and Streets of Willow. This way the test would show the differences between track configurations. Basically car A outperforms car B on the high speed track but car B outperforms car A on the tighter track.


1day:
Kyle, let me star by saying that I am not hating your dad, but this comment really should go both ways shouldnt it, i am not going to expand more on that.

It makes no sense to me that your dad(a pro driver) was not able to get a better time in the Z06 or the GT2 than the non-pro did in the CD test? It only make sense that your dad's time in the other 2 cars should have have been few secs better than the CD driver as well. I fail to understand that. Anyhow your dad ran well in that test.

If I am assuming the CD driver was a non-pro, then correct me, but i dont remember CD driver name being flung around like your dads


kyle:
This comment can definitely go both ways and depending on who you talk to, it will. Anyone can say that Steve Millen does not know how to drive a Porsche or Corvette to its limits. There can be arguments made that he sand bagged the other cars just enough to make it look like the GT-R was faster. I know my Dad well enough to know that he does not know what sand bagging is. We even race hard against each other. You can gaurantee if he is behind the wheel of something he is going to give 100%. One thing that can not be debated are the facts. And, the simple fact is, the GT-R has beaten every single car that any magazine has put it up against. Except for the M3 but that's only because C&D liked the back seats.

Let's seperate the source of the data and just take the facts. Take C&D's time in the Corvette and Porsche and R&T's time in the GT-R. These are the fastest (publicly recorded) times that anyone has been able to pull from these cars. The GT-R is still faster by 4 seconds.

Something else that my Dad and I talked about is that C&D openly states that the GT-R they tested felt weaker and posted slower times than any other GT-R they have ever driven. Maybe something was up with that car...We have no idea.

I know that the car my Dad drove for R&T was a production based car. It might be considered "pre-production" (I dont know that's why I say might) but we know that it was setup the same way every other GT-R will be setup when they hit showroom floors.

As far as my Dad's driving abilities, whether he can or can't drive a certain type of car fast...I simply recommend looking into his history. Multiple wins at the 24 hours of Le Mans, Daytona, Sebring and 2 championships in the IMSA series. Numerous championships in everything from open wheel single seaters and IMSA sports cars to championships in the Mickey Thompson off road racing series. To this day he is still the all time winningest driver in sports car history. He hasn't even race in sports cars since 1995 and he still holds the record. I know he's my Dad so I'm obviously proud of him but again, the fact that he has accomplished so much behind the wheel clearly shows that the guy can drive...


roadrunner:
In defense of Kyle (and his dad), I can vouch for the inadequacy of C&D and Automobile regular drivers. When my brother (ex product planner in charge of the 350Z) gave cars to magazines back in 2002/3, he could not but note the terrible driving skills of most of the mag drivers. Kudos to R&T for repeatedly using Steve Millen with his vast esperience. He is objective and non-biased. On the other hand most of the people who are up in arms against Steve have never been within 6 feet from an apex.

According to the engineers of the GT-R it should only have 10% drivetrain loss, which is due to “ultra-low friction bearings in the wheel hubs and transmission, plus the careful alignment of the all-wheel drive system's propshafts”. If you average out all the dyno tests and factor in 10%, the hps is always around 480hp…sometimes you get a little but more, but then you need to factor in the dyno machine, who is testing it, fuel type and air temp etc., etc.

I can't say if one's better than the other, especially since I haven't driven either of them as of now. But, with a 150hp deficit and a several hundred pound handicap, the fact that the GTR can hang with the ZR1 is very impressive. It's clearly a superbly engineered car. On any given day the Red Sox can beat the Yankees, and on any given day a GTR can beat a ZR1, and vice versa.

test

the zr1 may have lapped it faster but you can see that the driver struggled more to control it.....the gtr handled so much nicer....if it had the same power as the zr1 then it would have been a different story.....but it didnt. the zr1 is a faster car...as seen

i cant wait for the v-spec to come out.....would like to see another comparison then :)

great job with the video, now we can wait not for the v-spec gtr but for the nismo z-tune gtr, then who'll be lapping who? until then we can watch the v-spec still destroy the zr1

I wouldn't count on the v-spec destroying anything considering a Z06 can handle the 'vanilla' GTR.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjmyt52-c8c

And don't bother replying with "corvette's are only good in a straight line" because that hasn't really been true since 1984.

COME ON GUYS. Don't be haterz. Ya know that these two competitors are off the wall baby but look at this, lets be realistic about it. 3 Whopping seconds, two more pistons,almost 400 pounds lighter, over 150 more horsepower, superior cornering, and most of all a ZR1!!! SUPEARCHARGE!!!JUST THREE SECONDS. THAT GTR is not even a V SPEC but standard!!!! I'm TRADING!!!

I don't want to consider standardizing the Nürburgring tests because I don't think the posted times are that valuable. A car that set the fast time at a given track may be terrible to drive. Rather than standardizing the tests we should have a more subjective approach. All the journalists that have the opportunity should be comparing these cars back to back on the Nordshleife. And they shouldn't be too concerned with lap times. What does it feel like to drive these cars at the Nordshleife??? Specs don't give us broke mf much of an idea what the car really drives like.

Only the Corvette will pass the gut check with most American customers. Only one of these cars would intimidate my wife enough to not want to drive it, and it's not the Nissan. I'll take nothing away from their engineering accomplishments on the GT-R, for they are remarkable, but for a certain segment of the American car buying demographic (Mostly children of the 1970's or older) who not coincidentally are the target market for cars over 70 grand, nothing beats a V-8 with a manual transmission. The ZR-1 is undeniably the greatest Corvette ever built, and representative of what GM is capable of doing right if properly motivated.